Wolfram & Cast
S2E7 ("Darla") -- Epic Crossovers and Dark Legacies: Unpacking Darla's Story
What if the very essence of a character's identity could be transformed and redefined through a single episode? Join us as we unravel the fascinating web of "Angel" Season 2, Episode 7, titled "Darla," where we explore a pivotal crossover event with "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." Together with Lisa M Lilly, host of "Buffy and the Art of the Story," we spotlight Tim Minear's masterful writing and directing. This episode pairs seamlessly with Buffy's "Fool for Love," weaving a rich narrative that uncovers the origins and intricate dynamics of beloved characters like Darla and Spike.
Throughout our discussion, we delve into the layered connections and story intricacies between "Buffy" and "Angel," emphasizing how crossover episodes elevate character motivations and storyline development. We dissect iconic scenes, such as Spike's transformation during the Boxer Rebellion, and celebrate Minear's storytelling prowess. Julie Benz's compelling portrayal of Darla and David Boreanaz's nuanced performance as Angel anchor our conversation, showcasing their undeniable chemistry and the emotional depth they bring to their characters' tumultuous relationship.
From Darla's backstory and her transformation from mortal to vampire to the complexities of her bonds with Lindsey and Angel, we leave no stone unturned. We reflect on the irony of Darla and Angel being soulmates rather than lovers and critique the historical inaccuracies of Darla's origins. This episode promises an immersive exploration of themes like identity, transformation, and the relentless grip of the past, all while highlighting the standout moments that make this crossover a cornerstone of both series.
What if the very essence of a character's identity could be transformed and redefined through a single episode? Join us as we unravel the fascinating web of "Angel" Season 2, Episode 7, titled "Darla," where we explore a pivotal crossover event with "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." Together with Lisa M Lilly, host of "Buffy and the Art of the Story," we spotlight Tim Minear's masterful writing and directing. This episode pairs seamlessly with Buffy's "Fool for Love," weaving a rich narrative that uncovers the origins and intricate dynamics of beloved characters like Darla and Spike.
Throughout our discussion, we delve into the layered connections and story intricacies between "Buffy" and "Angel," emphasizing how crossover episodes elevate character motivations and storyline development. We dissect iconic scenes, such as Spike's transformation during the Boxer Rebellion, and celebrate Minear's storytelling prowess. Julie Benz's compelling portrayal of Darla and David Boreanaz's nuanced performance as Angel anchor our conversation, showcasing their undeniable chemistry and the emotional depth they bring to their characters' tumultuous relationship.
From Darla's backstory and her transformation from mortal to vampire to the complexities of her bonds with Lindsey and Angel, we leave no stone unturned. We reflect on the irony of Darla and Angel being soulmates rather than lovers and critique the historical inaccuracies of Darla's origins. This episode promises an immersive exploration of themes like identity, transformation, and the relentless grip of the past, all while highlighting the standout moments that make this crossover a cornerstone of both series.
Darla come out with me tonight. I'll make it alright. Make love by candlelight till the break of dawn. Darla, let it take my hand. I'll make you understand. I'll be your lover man from now on.
Speaker 2:Hello, welcome to Wolfram and Cast an Angel angel retrospective. I am longtime fan Steven Yunkin and I am rooting for those two crazy kids, angelus and Darla, and wondering how Darla can go up to 400 years and not kill a single Slayer, though she helped slaughter half of Europe, while Spike managed to bag two Slayers in a quarter of the time. In this podcast I'll be doing a deep dive discussion on the Buffy spinoff show, angel, one episode at a time, with spoilers for both series. I have chosen to focus on Angel because, as a fan of the show, I feel that even 20 plus years after the show premiered, it still has themes and ideas that are worth discussing. Thus, for each episode, I will go over what works, doesn't work and all of the ideas and themes the show puts forth. In this week's episode, I will discuss the seventh episode of the second season, darla, which was written and directed by producer Tim Menear, marking it as his directing debut on the series. Tim was with the show for its first four seasons and wrote 18 episodes, including Sense and Sensitivity, hero, somnambulist, sanctuary, reunion Through the Looking Glass, billy and Home. He also wrote the Train Job for Firefly and the season one finale, omega for Dollhouse, according to his IMDb entry.
Speaker 2:When he was a child, tim Minear's parents chastised him for doing his homework while watching television. Little did they know he was planning a career A Trekkie, long before there was a next generation. Tim grew up in Whittier, california, and began making Super 8 movies in his backyard at the age of nine. He studied film at Cal State University at Long Beach and began his professional career as a production assistant, then assistant director, on such films as Re-Animator, the Men's Club, nudes and Platoon. After penning several spec feature scripts, tim worked for a time as a script doctor, rewriting on low-budget feature films. His television credits include the New Adventures of Zorro, robin's Hoods for Aaron Spelling and two for Stephen Cannell. He spent two years as co-producer on High Tide, a surfer detective comedy drama any excuse to show lots of girls in bikinis, our syndicated show. While working on High Tide, tim got to live for a year in New Zealand. He was nominated for four producing Emmys for Feud and American Horror Story.
Speaker 2:The episode originally aired on November 14, 2000,. And the IMDb description of the episode is Lindsay finds himself drawn to Darla as her mental state deteriorates, which, as a side note, unlike a lot of them, wow. They missed the point of this episode when Angel first aired. The series aired immediately following Buffy on Tuesday nights on the WB. This two-hour block allowed for them to do special events where the Buffy episode led directly into a continuation on Angel. They first tried this with Spike leaving Sunnydale in Harsh Light of Day and winding up in LA in In the Dark, and had both title characters guests on each other's shows for Pangs and I Will Remember you. And they went even further with a four-episode event of the Faith arc, with parts one and two on Buffy and the concluding two episodes on Angel. But on November 14th both series went for a truly epic event of airing Fool for Love and Darla back-to-back, unlike the other crossovers where the plots did carry over from one series to the next. Fall, for Love and Darla were truly two separate episodes which made no plot references to each other but were directly connected. Not only did they give us origin stories of two long-time characters, spike and Darla, they had scenes that directly overlapped, with some of them being identical, albeit from a different character's point of view.
Speaker 2:Because of the epic nature of this episode and the crossover with Buffy, I too am doing a crossover for my episode. Joining me for this episode is Lisa M Lilly, host of the podcast Buffy and the Art of the Story, which, like this show, does a deep dive discussion into Buffy the Vampire Slayer, albeit from an authorial story-driven perspective, by discussing the story structure and the ways it follows or breaks the rules of good storytelling. In addition to hosting the Buffy and the Art of the Story podcast, lisa M Lilly is the author of the best-selling four-book Awakening Supernatural Thriller series, as well as numerous short stories. She is currently writing the latest novel in her QC Davis Mysteries. Her nonfiction includes books on the writing craft. Under LM Lilly. She also founded WritingAsASec craft. Under LM Lilly. She also founded writingasasecondcareercom. So my questions to Lisa and my dear listeners are first, how well did the crossover format work for this episode? And second, what song do you think the master was singing outside Darla's window? Do you think it was In your Eyes? By Peter Gabriel.
Speaker 1:That would be a great choice yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not picturing the master holding a giant boombox outside of Darla's window, John Cusack style.
Speaker 1:That would be perfect and I thought the crossover worked really well, considering, as you said, worked really well considering, as you said, the plots of the two episodes don't affect one another. They don't affect one another's series arcs, but yet they are connected through the flashbacks and through their theme.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I completely agree as well that of all the crossover episodes though listeners will know that I had nothing but wild praise for 5x5, as well as Sanctuary and, of course, for Nothing in the Dark. I'm a huge Spike fan and even for that episode I remember commenting that he is the MVP of the series, that everything with Spike is gold. Because I'll just state right now, Fool for Love is one of my favorite Buffy episodes and it's because James Marster should have received an Emmy nomination for that episode. He was good, he owned it. In spite of all that, I would say this is the best of the crossover episodes and, as a note, I'm not the only one to feel that way, because in an interview for Attack of the Show, Joss Whedon stated that this episode was his all-time favorite episode was Darla, which is interesting considering he's not even directly involved. He didn't write or direct this episode, so it's not like he's naming In the Wings or one of the other episodes that he did write and or direct.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is really interesting that he picked this one, but I could see why it appeals to him both Fool for Love and Darla, maybe because of the in-depth character driven nature of them both.
Speaker 2:Oh, I have no doubt that might have been a major factor, because one of the things I always loved about his shows is he is and I mentioned this on your show when I guest starred for Conversations with Dead People discussion that one of the things I always loved about both shows was the theme that the themes he would bring out and also the strong characterizations. Because what is always great about both shows was, yes, they were set in fantastical universes with demons, um, zombies, vampires, demons who could read your soul if you did karaoke in front of them. I mean really out there concepts. But what he did, first and foremost, was he took the main characters and grounded them in reality so that you could believe that these characters would react the way they do, the way they do for Buffy.
Speaker 2:You can imagine a person like a Buffy existence, set aside the slayer aspect, but a person with her personality, her flaws, her strengths. Same thing with a Will Alexander, so on. On this one, I can easily believe a Charles Gunn type person exists. I mean, maybe not fighting vampires, but a guy like Charles Gunn being out there. I can believe a Wesley Wyndham Price. I can believe in a Cordelia. I can believe in even an angel.
Speaker 1:So once again set aside the 200 year old vampire, 250 year old vampire aspect, but just with a person, with his personality and his flaws, his ego at times and unwillingness to trust his team, so on but if two episodes really show that in a way, because you have angel and spike, you know two vampires who are, you know, buffy, spoilers will will also fall in love with spike and spike will also get a soul. And yet they are so different just from from the moment they become vampires on. So it's not like, okay, here's the vampire, here's the werewolf, here's you know, whatever it is, they're not just characters.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're not archetypes, they are characters, first and foremost because he makes it clear that for the main characters, I mean, we're setting aside, of course, the villains of the pieces and all that, the glories and all that, but the major characters who show up again and again and again, they are three dimensional. Spike is three dimensional. We saw that in Full for Love. That this was. He was a romantic at heart. That he was a romantic at heart and we even knew that going all the way back to School Hard in his opening scene, when his face softens, when he first comes in in vamp mode and full of swagger with his and I won't do it now for the audience, but I can still recite his, if you were there monologue.
Speaker 1:Yes, at the crucifixion.
Speaker 2:Exactly. I could do the entire speech, but I will not bore the audience with it. It was just pure swagger. But the moment Drusilla walks in, softens immediately and he goes from swagger to Drusilla I mean very gentle, very loving towards her, very tender and caring, not swagger, not evil, very nice and sweet and loving. And, as I'll mention again here in just a little bit and probably several several times throughout this episode, and I have done in previous ones, darla is the same way where, yes, darla is evil and we see that in this episode yes, I mean she brings in a baby for Angelus to feed on.
Speaker 2:I mean, this is not a nice woman, but her relationship with Angelus is complex, where I've mentioned this in other episodes where she does truly care for Angelus. This is not, you know, any twisted thing. No, you get the feeling she truly does love him in her own evil way, both as a lover but also as a mother towards son, a mentor mentee. I mean very complex relationship. A mentor mentee, I mean very complex relationship. And she reacts as a human in what in this episode, which I love, was she reacts in ways that are believable and, as I said, that's what I always love about the characters because, and I've mentioned before, lindsey is one of my favorite secondary characters because once again, he's complex. He's not just evil attorney out to defeat angel. No, there is a complexity to this guy and that's why I'm glad they brought they brought him in and my only regret was I wish they had used him even more than they did, as I and I'll bring that up again for his big scene they has early on with with Darla. It comes through big time on that.
Speaker 2:But before getting back to the characters also, what I want to discuss is the difference between this and other crossovers because, as I mentioned, the intro you'd said the same thing was this wasn't like the others, because with the others they were in essence one big story and you had to have seen the buffy episodes to truly understand the angel episodes because, like in nothing in the dark, in the harsh light of day, well, the buffy one first discussed the ring and they just, you know, just did like a two-line summary of it. An angel with doyle saying yeah, it makes you immoral, and it doesn't like in two lines, whereas in in buffy they did a much deeper discussion and also showed how spike got the ring and how wound up in buffy's possession, whereas angels it's ah shows up with the ring and says here, angel have it, they don't yeah. And then I need to explain how did oz get the ring in the first place? Did he find it in a pawn shop? We don't know.
Speaker 2:If you just watched Angel, you have no idea how Oz got it, other than Buffy gave it to him.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, and who knows how Buffy got it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and notice Spike, know about it. And then same thing with Pangs, and I will remember you Now. Granted, the stories aren't related, but you don't really understand why, remember you Now. Granted, the stories aren't related, but you don't really understand. Why is Buffy suddenly showing up in LA after all this time and why is she making the reference of, oh, you were in Sunnydale, yeah. And why is she so angry at Angel? That's not important, you don't need to know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and that in fact, also comes into play big time in the Faith ones. Because, angel, if you didn't watch the Buffy ones, your first immediate question is why isn't Faith among the conscious? Last time we saw it she was in a very happy coma. I mean. Now all of a sudden she's walking around LA and then in Sanctuary. It doesn't explain it, and I'm not criticizing it because it does assume you watched Buffy. It's actually where it doesn't explain it. Why is Buffy so freaking angry at Angel and wanting to kill Faith? Because for that one you had to have seen who are you, to see what havoc Faith as Buffy reaped when she was in Buffy's body, to understand why Buffy really, really, really did not like Faith at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that would not work at all. I mean it doesn't. You don't get a sense of Buffy as a character the same way in those episodes if you haven't watched.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but this one, on the other hand, is different. Haven't watched, yeah, but this one, on the other hand, is different. If you never watched buffy I mean other than just not knowing who the characters were but if you didn't watch fool for love, yeah, you could have watched darla it wouldn't have affected the plot at all, because I can't think of a single plot element that and I want to phrase this very specifically a single plot element that happened in Fool for Love that affected any plot elements that happened in the present day of Darla. Can you think of any plot elements Like, as I mentioned, like for the others, yeah, there is a plot element that directly affected Angel.
Speaker 1:There really there isn't, there really there isn't. And I I wasn't surprised, exactly because I knew I didn't cover this Darla in Buffy and the Art of Story and I did cover the faith episodes. I did. Angel, you know, covered the angel episode. Yeah, because you, you need to know how that story ends and it affects Buffy going forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, especially like for the faith one, because you would have had literally half of the story, because at the end of who Are you she leaves and you don't get any true resolution to her character and then, when she pops up later, more reformed and less angry in the seventh season, in the seventh season, well, if you didn't watch 5x5 in St Short, you wouldn't have understood the fact that she has accepted what she did and all that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or that Buffy is semi-okay with her at that point. Brie, where this one? I'm sure I watched it, but yeah, I didn't feel like it needed to be part of that.
Speaker 2:No, or the Buffy season five story because it doesn't affect it, and vice versa, oh no, but yet at the same time, it is worth the time to watch both of those because it and I mentioned this is actually even more epic because it's a bigger tapestry of it. Well, first of all, I love the approach of the overlapping scenes between the siren of spike in the boxer rebellion, where in buffy you're in essence seeing the end of the scene. We see beginning an angel, which I love is that nice touch is we see in fool for love, spike winding up in the alleyway and then Drusilla approaching him and then biting him. But in Angel we see the beginning part of that scene, so it actually puts a different spin on it, with Darlo referring to him as a drooling idiot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:And then for the Boxer Rebellion, which I like was even more complex because we're truly getting a parallel version of the scene where in Fool for Love we see Spike fighting Chinese Slayer and killing her same moment. We get Darla and Angela's having their discussion elsewhere and then them dovetailing with the same scene in both episodes of Darla and Angela's meeting up with Spike and Drew, where that scene is common to both of them. And what's even more interesting is the fact that in OOF Love we get a different impression of Angela's somewhat cold and aloof expression towards Spike is maybe someone of jealousy looking down on him, whereas in this one we see it's the result of his discussion with Darla. Is the why he is that way, why he's a bit more removed? Darla is the why he is that way, why he's a bit more removed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a very different same scene, same expression on David Boreanaz's face, but a very different read.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I love the complexity. That might be a big part of the reason why Joss, as I mentioned, said this was his favorite episode because of that complexity that tim manier brought to it. And tim manier and I just want to praise him when reading off the list of the episodes I said that he had done for angel. These are among the best episodes of the series. I mean through the looking glass home billy heroes who have long time listeners of my show will know that I absolutely loved Sanctuary and Somnambulist and liked Sense and Sensitivity. I had issues with it but I mean, but Sanctuary and Somnambulist I considered near the top of season one and then, well, we'll get to Reunion and I'll just spoil that right now for fans.
Speaker 2:Also near the top of my list, because that episode I especially the ending, is just purely chilling and that is credit to tim menier for phenomenal writing, not just dialogue but character plot, because he makes what he does is so economical, he makes, he makes each scene count. Even if it doesn't advance a plot, it advances a character. There is like the scene between Lindsay and Darla. Yeah, you could technically have trimmed it, you know, maybe it didn't need to go that long, but it did for the characters to truly get us to see Lindsay falling for Darla and that this is more than just a special project for him, the way Holland still views Darla.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That he is developing true and sincere feelings for her and that will end up affecting his actions throughout the rest of the series. Now my only real complaint upon watching this again because I've seen the Angel series several times now in its entirety, along with Buffy, but for this show I'm doing a deeper dive, more closely watching of. It is one big difference between this and Fool for Love and you as an author. I'd like to see if you agree with me on this one. In Fool for Love, who was the protagonist who was driving the events in that episode? Not in the series. In that episode, who was driving the? Who was the protagonist who was driving the events in Fool for Love?
Speaker 1:Well, I think for the main plot it was Buffy, for the flashback I would say Spike.
Speaker 2:Actually, I would say Buffy is actually not really other than she just precipitates Spike to tell the story. Because if you think about it, what is the main plot? Spike tells her a story. That is, quote, the main plot.
Speaker 1:Well, the main plot is Buffy trying to understand why she almost got killed and seeking help, which prompts him. But I mean there is a good argument that Spike's story takes up more Like. You could certainly view Spike's story as the main plot.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, considering the flashbacks actually take up more screen time than the present day events, if you but there's a lot like.
Speaker 1:I would say that for the um, his the first going up to the boxer rebellion, but then when he does the new york slayer, when he kills her, there's a lot of intercutting between that and him and buffy I don't want to go down a deep rabbit hole.
Speaker 2:That is still my favorite scene of the entire episode. Yeah, between present and New York, that was just brilliantly, brilliantly edited so good.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I agree with you. There's an argument that the main plot is really Spike's, because it is Spike's origin story, not just as a vampire. Then, from vampire to vampire with a chip in his head who's in love with a slayer. So he's got a big arc and Buffy's is a relatively small arc.
Speaker 2:Especially in the flashbacks. By their very design, the emphasis was on Spike in every scene. He was the center of every scene, was on Spike in every scene. He was the center of every scene, how he reacted, how he acted and how he changed events for other characters in each scene. Now, in Darla, listeners might already anticipate where I'm going to go with this. In the episode Darla, who was driving the events in Darla? Who was the protagonist, not just in present day, but also in the flashbacks? Who would you say was the protagonist? I'll say in the flashbacks, good compare. Apple say I have to think about it.
Speaker 1:I actually think it is Darla, because she is the main point of view character and she drives them in that she is trying to get angel back. She's trying, she tries to reverse the curse. Um she, she rejects him. Then she tries to force him to embrace his whole, his old ways. But at the same time, angel has a very strong plot as well in there.
Speaker 2:I mean, because that's what I'm sick it is upon watching the episode is only two flashback scenes where she was well.
Speaker 2:Actually, let me rephrase it, in only one flashback scene I would say she was the central character and that was the scene at the gypsy camp where Angeles wasn't even in the scene where she was negotiating with the gypsy father. That was the only one where she was the central character, because even her siring the master actually was a little bit more, was more primary than she was. The moment he walked in this on screen he became more of the central focus of luring her into becoming a vampire. And in all the other scenes the focus, I would say, was actually not so much on her but on Angelus, providing his point of view of adjusting to having a soul and trying to get back with Darla and providing that as a contrast with how Darla in present day was also going through her own form of pain and realizing she had a soul now. But in both cases I would say Angelus, if anything, was more primary, darla was more secondary. Now, this is not a criticism, just an observation.
Speaker 1:I was noticing when I was watching that in most of the key scenes, just an observation I was noticing when I was watching that in most of the key scenes the camera was more focused on Angel slash Angelus than it was on Darla.
Speaker 1:It's interesting that you thought that on rewatch, because I had the opposite journey Before I rewatched it. I was like, oh right, that when Darla is, the flashbacks are Angel, you know, showing us more about Angel. And then I watched it and concluded that it was darla's point of view, like we might be seeing angel but we're seeing him through her eyes, although, yeah, I could see where you could read it both ways. But I I saw it primarily as how darla saw him like in that scene scene where in the Boxer Rebellion, where Angel's irritated at Spy Right, I thought what we were seeing was now Darla's perception that oh, spike's off killing a Slayer and Angelus is not wanting to be here and not happy about it and his heart isn't in the game, like his head isn't in the game, like his head isn't in the game.
Speaker 2:So I thought, as she, we're seeing through her point of view yeah, I'm not saying she isn't an important character, oh no, I mean what. The episode is titled darla. It's the first episode of angel that actually was named directly after a character, as opposed to some other cute spin on the title. So yes, she's a very critical character. But now, also talking about her for just a moment, this is my only other wish we would have had. Maybe it would have been even better if it had been a two-hour episode or a two-parter, or we could have gotten some more filled in in a later.
Speaker 2:Episode was unlike spike, where we get the evolution of him throughout the centuries in full for love, because we see him at the different stages of his life. In darla it's a big jump because we go from her at the end of her life in in 1609, where she's ensired by the master, and then it's jumped to years later where she is now a fully formed vampire. She's comfortable attacking people and slaughtering half of Europe. And now in Becoming we already saw the scene where she met Angela, slash, liam. So that one we didn't need to replay again for like the third or fourth time because we've seen it so many times now but we didn't actually see how did she adjust to being mortal, to going to being a vampire. Now, I mean, she literally went from being prostitute to vampire. We never got to see that in-between stage that we got with Spike and with Angelus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that's a good point, like Fool for Love is much more clearly. The flashbacks are much more clearly. Spike's story and even we know Spike's name from when he was human. We know how he picked Spike as his vampire name and we find out all kinds of things and right with jarla, she doesn't even remember her human name right.
Speaker 2:They make a point of it that yeah what one knows what her mortal name was.
Speaker 2:So we don't even get that background now. Granted, I know we'll discuss that when we get to the scene there. Where, why did they go with that approach of saying you know, why don't we know who she was? I mean, we can discuss that more at length when we get to the scene by scene discussion, but that's the fact that we don't know anything about her. We're seeing her literally at the end of her life, whereas with Fool for Love we saw a little bit of Spike before then, at the party first.
Speaker 2:So we got to see how yeah, free vampire spike was, how william pratt was, and that way they allowed us to see the difference in terms of how he was as spike or william the bloody. So it would have been nice at some point, either in this episode or maybe in a later episode, if we could have seen a little bit more of that, because darla is such a fascinating character that I want to know as much about her as I as I could. And I had the same reaction, as listeners might remember, for somnambulist, where I said the same thing about pen played by jeremy renner, where my only complaint was I wanted to know more. I wanted them to give me even more background, which is credit to the show that they give us such a great character that it's not enough that I like this character so much. I want more. I need more from them.
Speaker 2:So I'm much more to have that than that. Well, as listeners of your show will know that I had issues with Dawn where less of Dawn would have been.
Speaker 1:Less of Dawn would have been fine.
Speaker 2:Here. In this case I want more Darla, I want more background. Now, before I get to the acting on this, especially between David and Julie, just one side comment that also I love about was the storytelling structure. Side comment that also I love about was the storytelling structure, because of the fact that not just the overlapping mosaic between this and full of love, but the jumping around in terms of the timelines, not just for flashbacks, especially at the end with her final scene with angelus, where we get almost the build-up to the baby scene, then it cuts back to present, then it cuts back to that scene again and then overlaps them for a purposeful, thematic and dramatic purpose of showing both characters fleeing for different reasons from the person they are with.
Speaker 2:And Tim Minear, who wrote and directed it in an interview, commented that he likened the storytelling approach in this episode to the nonlinear looping technique exhibited in Pulp Fiction and, as he said, it's a different story happening in the same universe.
Speaker 2:Now, granted, I won't say this was as complex as Pulp Fiction was, but I could see where that inspired him because of the fact of the jumping around, and led for a more interesting storytelling style than if he just went sequential in a way that almost well that Fool for Love did was essentially sequential, just with the present day parts acting as act breaks, as it were. In spike's story this one, no, it was jumping around where the present day events were being used at specific points as dramatic, cut away from the cast for line references like the she always loved a view, she always wanted a view, where then it cuts back to there and then, especially at that scene at the end of I can't, and then coming to the past where he says that same line again of I can't, which I love now the one big thing I want and this I cannot discuss this episode without bringing up the performances before I give my opinion.
Speaker 2:What? What did you think of David and Julie? Julie Benz as Darla and David?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I thought they were both amazing. You saw such clear differences in who they were, depending where they were on their journey and even, like I said, where David's's expression. You see it differently, which means he got so much in into that that you can read it a couple different ways. And especially Julie Ben, because Darla to play Darla as a human dying, and then Darla as a vampire, and then Darla as a human once again, but without any sense of who she was before as a human being, like she played that. I went on and on praising how well David and Julie play off of each other and this episode showed it again.
Speaker 2:In both cases it was a key scene at the end and I love how they play not just as Angelus and Darla. We've seen that in other episodes on Buffy, we've seen that before. But it's even more interesting watching not Angelus and Darla, but Angel and Darla, because that's an even more complex thing. Because, as I've mentioned in past episodes, what I loved about Darla was the fact that she loved Angelus. It was a nice parallel her love for Angelus as a parallel for Buffy's love for Angel, where, just as a reminder, was what I had commented about, dear Boy was the fact that you have Buffy willing to forgive Angel for his actions as Angelus because she loved Angel so much, whereas Darla is willing to forgive him for his actions as Angel because of her love for Angelus.
Speaker 2:So I thought that was a great parallel when you pointed that out and I had not thought about that, but absolutely yeah, and I always love that as the sort of the flip sides of the same coin and the fact that they're young, beautiful females is, I do not believe, is a coincidence, right? Yeah, I mean that had to be intentional for the casting and especially since, as fans know, how did darla first appear in what was her outfit in the opening episode of buff the cheerleading?
Speaker 2:outfit yeah well, no, no, sorry, sorry. Did I say buffy? I meant darla? Oh and darla. Yeah, darla's first outfit in the opening, in the opening episodes of buffy, was as a Catholic high school girl. So they were both high school, even though Darwin was a wee bit older than high school age at that point, as I said. So nice parallel there. But I would say, and I would go even further to say, that David as an actor, his chemistry with Julie Benz was even better than his chemistry with Sarah. I would go that far that they played. He played better off of Julie than he did as Sarah Maybe it was how the writing was, I'm not sure but with Sarah, yes, I know all the fans ship Angel and Buffy and oh, they're the eternal loves. You know it's Romeo and Juliet, you know, so on, so forth, but just in terms of bonding yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1:I mean, maybe it's partly, he's a more experienced actor at the point where he's, you know, in his own show and and there's more for him to do there's more range for Angel than he had on Buffy.
Speaker 2:And I think what I liked about it was and I've mentioned this in past episodes was the reason why he and Darla Angel and Darla played so well for each other was just in terms of how they carried themselves, just in terms of the looks they would give each other, just in terms of the energy coming off of it. You could sense the centuries of the energy coming off of it. You could sense the centuries of a relationship between them. You didn't even have to have the flashbacks, you could just sense that these are two people who deeply, deeply know each other, both the good and the bad. And it's so complex of a relationship because, yes, with buffy it's complex because he's a vampire, she's a vampire slayer, but that's really about as complex as that relationship gets.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That once he's immortal, then there's no complexity whatsoever. I mean, yeah, they're both good looking people. Of course they're going to wind up together. It was just the different stations in life wind up together. It was just the different stations in life, whereas with darla it is complex because he feels an indebtedness to her.
Speaker 2:But, as we see at the scene near the end of this episode, which he says you know, return the favor I gave you. And his response is favor, you damned me. So he loves her. I mean, I wouldn't actually change that verb because because I want to get to a quote that I want to read here in just a moment he is protective of her. That's why he's willing to go through all the steps we'll see here in the next several episodes, but yet he also, in a way, hates her because of what she did to him, because she did damn him.
Speaker 2:Yes, he is indebted to her, but he hates her at the same time. And that's even more complex than yeah, I love you, but I know you're supposed to kill me, not as complex, because he knows, unless he turns into angelus, buffy's never going to kill him. I mean, that's a given. Yeah, it's only if he turns evil, as long as he's still good guy, angel, he's safe, so there. That's why that complexity doesn't exist as much, whereas here, with Darla, he doesn't know truly how to act towards her because, yes, she is even in mortal form, as we see, she's still somewhat evil, but he knows that he doesn't know how to react to to her. Should he save her? Should he not save her? You know what should he do? And we see that play out so well in their final scene together, which is just pure brilliance by both actors.
Speaker 2:Whereas you commented was, julie brings the pain to her scene, where she is feeling the weight of the of the soul on her and but she reacts in a different way than angelus did or angel did, where it was just like dazed by all of it and feeling remorse for it and spike just went insane, right, right. But with darla it's one of those. No, she wants it gone. She doesn't actually feel get the feeling, she doesn't feel so much guilt over what she did as much as why are you reminding me of this? I was happier when I didn't have to think about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like which says she probably does feel guilt, but she's not. She's not going into the guilt, she wants to just go past it and get rid of it, exactly Because it's better before.
Speaker 2:Well, I'd say the big difference is she doesn't feel repentant about it.
Speaker 1:That's a good way to put it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, angel felt repentant about that's a good way to put it. Yeah, angel felt repentant. Spike felt repentant. Once he got over his, his insanity, he felt repentant, whereas I mean, in fact, we we even saw spike as a vampire was still willing to do good yeah though, albeit for evil purposes, but still was willing to do good acts were necessary and an angel, as we saw, was willing to do good acts where necessary.
Speaker 2:And then Angel, as we saw, was willing to do good when he got the soul, as we see in this episode near the end, with Darla pointing out that the only humans he was feeding on were the evil people. Yeah, even before he became hero Angel, he was still already trained to do good things with darla. No, she doesn't want to do any good she. That's why she said no, make me a vampire again, just do it. Yeah, I want to go back. I had much more fun as a vampire, was much easier for me with life. And then even in the brief scene we see in 1609, even though I mentioned I wish we had known more, but just in that brief scene near the end of her life, we get the feeling she was not a nice person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she doesn't feel, she doesn't what she says, like God never did anything for me, she's not going to do a deathbed repentance.
Speaker 2:No, not at all. Going to do a deathbed repentance? No, not at all. In fact, in a book called the Psychology of Joss Whedon, an unauthorized exploration of Buffy, angel and Firefly, the author Joy Davidson wrote this about Darla we could easily mistake Buffy for the most important femme in Angel's life, considering they had the forbidden love of all time. But another relationship was better than forbidden it was formative. Of course, I'm speaking of the same relationship that is central in most men's lives the one with Mom. Except in Angel's case, mother did not spit him from her womb but bit him into bloody being.
Speaker 2:To say that Darla made Angel is to tell only a fraction of the story. She made him, yes, but more than that she shaped him, molded him into her perfect consort. She directed his slaughter of his own family, wowed him with sadomasochistic thrills and showered him with otherworldly wisdom. When she abandoned him, he trailed her across continents and decades Later, insold and divided against himself, darla cast him off to suffer alone. Yet Angel sought her reflection all over again in another preternatural little blonde. Now, that's a doozy of a relationship. And yeah, great point yeah, and that's why that's what I always loved about was that complexity where she was not just his lover, which yes, she was, but she was also his mother, and not just in the was also his mother, and not just in the drusilla family tree way of yo, my mommy, yeah, but she did mentor her, she did train him, as we saw in somnambulist and prodigal and we saw here in this episode, where she wanted him to be the way she felt he could be, and she has stated many times that she felt he was at his quote best when he was just Angelus terrorizing all of Europe.
Speaker 2:Now Tim Minear also, though, points out though not to confuse this with love, because Tim Minear wrote about their romantic history. He said at no time was I trying to play this as being angels, true love. It's more like the play who's afraid of virginia wolf, this troubled old married couple with secrets. I wasn't trying to take buffy's place in his heart by any stretch of the imagination, but here's a guy who's been around for a couple of hundred years before he ever met Buffy, and certainly he was shaped in some way, and he was explaining that, despite calls of retconning from fans who saw, in the Buffy episode becoming part one, that Angel was living in the streets of New York in the early 1990s. To Menear comment that he doesn't believe. Angel was quote thrown out of that room in Romania by Darla in 1898 and has been living on the streets ever since that. No, there was probably more filled in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, I didn't see that as inconsistent. I figured, you know, when we saw him in the original Hyperion story, like Angel has been through phases since that time and I get why maybe fans felt like it didn't fit, but I thought it still worked and really, as you said, made it so interesting and so much more complex, both his evolution and the two of them.
Speaker 2:So now, on that note, now to discuss the episode in more detail with scene by scene. Now the episode begins with Angel sitting quietly in his room sketching away at a very nice pencil sketch of Darla, when Wesley walks in to check in and make sure everything is OK, and Angel responds not at all convincingly that everything is fine while continuing the sketch. Now, one side note here is the fact that we do see wesley glancing at angel drawing multiple sketches of darla. In the original script he spotted a number of the drawings were new drawings of Darla, and the following exchange occurred between the two of them Angel saying I've been thinking, that's all Wesley thinking, and Angel yes, it helps me sometimes to think with my hands and Wesley's response, and occasionally with just one hand.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, I'm glad they cut that out.
Speaker 2:Yes, we did not need that. But anyways, angel claims that he's got nothing to share at all, that everything, as I said, is fine, and Wesley then sees that this might not be true, considering there are dozens and dozens and dozens of other sketches laying on the floor, all of darla. And now, just as a side note, yeah, in most, if I walked into a room and I saw a person there was just sketching again and again and again of the same person, yeah, that would strike me as somewhat obsessive and I would be a little bit concerned about that person. And doesn't say, no, I'm fine, I'm not really thinking of her. Here's another 50 sketches I just did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not at all, and I thought it was an interesting echo of in Fool for Love when Spike says, as soon as Angelus told him what a slayer was, he became obsessed. Oh yeah, and I it's um, doesn't you know? It's sort of underneath everything, but I thought how interesting that this starts with angel being upset oh yeah.
Speaker 2:And he established even back in dear boy that he is very obsessed with Darla, that this is not just a past relationship because one gets the impression that, oh, he hooked up with many women over the years, I mean even while dating Darla. They don't see me as an exclusive couple because, well, if nothing else, he probably romanced the women before killing them and or siring them.
Speaker 1:And then there was Drusilla.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and so, as a result, yeah, I picture an open relationship for the two of them, and. But the thing is, though, out of all the relationships, this is the one that has stuck with him the most, so that even now that she's back in his life in a big way after a century Well, sorry, after a few years. See, as opposed to the previous episode, she is much weaker than what we saw at the end of Dear Boy, and Lindsay walks in and he sees all of the glass figurines, sculptures and mirrors completely shattered and destroyed. He also notices that Darla is sitting there with cuts on her hands and tends to her very tenderly, I mean very nicely, and we see this even in this scene here that, as opposed to dear boy where, yeah, we don't get a sense of, I wouldn't say, love or anything there at that point he was viewing her as a means to an end to get to Angel. She was still a project for him, but in this case here, there is already, just in this scene, a sense of him developing feelings for her.
Speaker 2:By the way, he tenderly takes care of her wounds and he is talking to her, and she explains that she is now remembering all of the things she did in the past and, as I mentioned when we were talking about her, is unlike angel and spike, where they are sense of repentance and regret at what they did, she is talking about this not in a sense of regret. Oh, I can't believe I hurt all these people, whatever. No, it's almost like a reminiscence of wow, I used to be so, you know, terrifying, I used to be so dangerous, and it's almost like she misses those days in a way yeah, at first I thought she was regretting, especially because she asks Lindsay, you know, does he have anyone?
Speaker 1:And she seems to have this concern for him. But then how that scene ends and what she says makes you realize, oh you know, that is probably not. That's probably not where this is going, that she's being more remorseful or human.
Speaker 2:No where this is going, that she's being more remorseful or human. No, and actually what I like is the way she acts towards lindsey, because this comes into play big time in reunion, when she and drusilla encountered the bulk of wolfram and heart in the wine cellar, and basically the fact that we get the feeling. That's why she she and drew let lindsey live, because she does actually, if nothing else, respects lindsey. That's why she doesn't kill him when she has the chance, when she becomes a vampire, she lets him live, and we even see that here, because she can tell that he cares about her and though she'll never have the feelings for him that she has for angels ever. No, that will never occur, and that, as a side note, is part of what will drive lindsey obsessive throughout the rest of the series, in my opinion, is the fact that angel was able to get something that Lindsay never could the feelings from Darla that Lindsay acted towards Darla. She would never care for him the way she did for Angel, and that would eat away at him as part of his obsession with Angel throughout the rest of the series. And then she does comment when talking to Lindsay that, as you mentioned, her closing line before the opening credits, is the fact that she and angelus are no longer lovers but something far worse, soulmates. And she said and she starts to laugh in almost ironic pain of it figures, two ex-vampires are now soulmates, which I love that ironic laugh because, as you said, it goes in a different direction than what you would have expected after seeing how angelus and handled becoming angel, where no, it's basically a sense of rueful irony. Well, it goes through the opening credits and then it flashes back to 1609, in Virginia Colony.
Speaker 2:Now, just as a side note to listeners, before I get into what actually happens in the scene, just a wee bit of historical nitpicking here I have to point out, which is the fact that I'll get to the punchline first, which is Darla would never have been in 1609 Virginia Colony. Nope, she wasn't. I'm not saying, of course, she wasn't, it's fictional. But not even a woman like her was in Virginia Colony in that year. Here's why Because in Jamestown, which is Virginia Colony, same thing, same name, but there were very few women. In fact, the first colonists were 104 men who came over in 1608, the year before it was just men, 104 of them. And then also there were two other groups of settlers who did arrive later that same year. And in those two groups of settlers there was exactly two women. One was Mrs Thomas Forrest and her servant Ann Burrus, who was later married in November of that year. No other settlers arrived in 1609.
Speaker 1:So that was it, oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Just those two women, both married. So as a result, there were no prostitutes, there were no single women in Jamestown slash Virginia Colony in 1609.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yes, so she probably couldn't have been established as you know she. She says she's a prostitute and she had that she clearly she's done. Well, the master says she has property, she has her own house like she's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she's been there a while in this in in the world of angel also, just as a side note, there were no houses as spacious and as well equipped as the one that a prostitute which, as you got me, wow, she must have been a really successful prostitute at that time. But there was no houses as spacious Basically all the houses in Jamestown in 1610, they had dirt floors and most had bare unplastered walls. In short, what we see here in this brief scene is not at all. Virginia Colony in 1609.
Speaker 1:That must be why in my head I always remember, I always think it was in Europe. You know, I just completely edit that. And until you said Virginia Colony, I would have been like, no, that was in Europe somewhere.
Speaker 2:Nope, yeah. Now, if this was in Europe, everything I just said would have been different. Yes, yeah, that's me See, we're in it. Yes, there were spacious houses and yeah, theoretically she may have been a successful prostitute in Europe, but not in Virginia College.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and with you there, I think. I think, yep, they should have said it in Europe.
Speaker 2:Hey, Angela and Darla spent most of their lives in Europe.
Speaker 1:I think that's also why I thought, you know, just kind of Edited that in there in my head because right, because right, you see, we see them a lot in europe well, that's where they spend most of their time until well, really until the end.
Speaker 2:What is their last part here in this episode? The entire rest of the time, for the most part, is in europe, I mean in different locations, you know well. Let me put this Europe slash Asia, because of course they tried out for the Boxer Rebellion, but they make references of going through all of Europe and laying a swath to it. So it does strike me as odd that they start off in the US, which implies that after she became a vampire, first thing she did was hop on a boat to go back to Europe.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Along with the Master and Toad, by the way.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, he took him too, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he came across the ocean. Oh, there's a cute girl, let's make her a vampire. And then, okay, we're done, let's go back to Europe. Yeah, so it could have saved a lot of time just to start off in england, but anyways, well, getting back to the episode, darla is lying in bed very ill as we find out in a later episode what she's ill from and the doctor who's tending towards her. There's also two nurses looking on and it's very clear she is just inches away from death. I mean, that's just a matter of minutes, practically at this point. At that moment, that's when the master walks in.
Speaker 2:Now, also, as a side note note, I just said that there were 104 men in the settlement. I just want to, sorry, bring up another nitpick. There's 104 men. That's not a very big town. There's 104 men. That's not a very big town. I mean, I've I've ran local 5k races that have had more people in it than that, and reason why I mentioned that is the fact that it's really odd that they nobody noticed an unfamiliar priest who has a cowl over his head the entire strolling up and down the streets at night, of course, course, never in the moonlight. Nobody ever stops and say, hey, father, I haven't seen you before. Wow, you've got a freaky face.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, you would think somebody might.
Speaker 2:And especially since it's not like Jamestown was all that big, because the main part of Jamestown Colony the biggest it was no bigger than a quarter of a mile. So it's not only wow, all that room, much room to move around, and there were no buildings outside of the palisade until much later, in 1610 so once again.
Speaker 2:You would have thought somebody would have noticed him at some point. That aside, I just want to say, as a side note, it was a great scene mark metcalf back. I mean we don't get enough mark metcalf as well. He's really fun as the master, and I'll mention that in the other scene in this episode where he meets up with angeles, I mean he's just pure fun. And anyways, for this one, though, his face is hidden in a hood, but his voice, even without seeing the face, fans immediately know who the guy is, because it's such a distinctive voice.
Speaker 1:I thought the end of this scene when he bites her to turn her.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I see that as the inciting incident for the story, because that's it. It's from outside Darlala, but it propels her story oh, yeah, I would.
Speaker 2:I would agree, because that is what generates all of the action that occurs from this point on. You know, is his biting. Yeah, I agree. And in fact, before he does that, yeah, he confirms that she'll be dead before the sun even sets. So he confirms, yeah, she just moments away from dying.
Speaker 2:And she reveals that she's a whore, as I mean her own words, and that he poses as a priest. But she says that she doesn't want or need one because, as you commented earlier, her line was God never did anything for me, which I love that line, because that already shows that she had turned her back on God years before the master came along and then, which actually makes me think of that might be a part of the reason why she was drawn to Angelus, because, if you think about it, angelus turned his back upon people and others before he became a vampire as well. So there's a kindred spirit there of somebody saying screw it to society, yeah, and after the others leave, that's when he pulls back the cow to reveal his face and, instead of freaking out like what most people would do, she's not afraid and in fact, she even says I know you. And that's when he confirms that he seemed to her the previous night from the window and that's when he says he's her savior, and he then echoes her line of god never did anything for me. He echoes that line with god never did anything for you, but I will. And then he does what, as you described, was the inciting incident, which is he leans over and bites her and, unlike others, in this case there is no pain you can sense almost from her or fear whatever. She is welcoming it, that this is something that she wants to happen.
Speaker 2:So now it flashes over to the present day and Team Angel are discussing what to do and Angel wants to find Darla so that he can save her. I mean, as I mentioned before, this complex relationship he has with her, he does actually want to save her, and Wesley, cordelia thinks that's a very bad idea because of their past, and I like the fact that Cordelia then admits also the fact that they are very bad at being detectives, unless there's a website that's called wwwohwehavedarnedlostashcom. We're pretty much out of luck, which I like that as a meta comment, because as detectives, for the most part they're not very good. No, because especially in the first season, they more was luck their way into it. Now angel became better at being undercover and posing in different ways, but in terms of actual detective work, they're not going to give shoelike holmes or the batman any run for their money, you know.
Speaker 2:But then gun, though, does point out something somewhat obvious that they ignore it initially, which is the fact that Wolfram and Hart would most likely be pulling up in some place that they would reserve for their out-of-town clients, because they are an international law firm and this is a major branch of them, so they would most likely have clients come from out of the country or from out of town, so they'd want to pull them up in a nice hotel.
Speaker 2:To pull them up in a nice hotel and, as he points out is do you truly think a law firm like them isn't going to find some place that they could write off? Which is actually a very clever thing to think of. And that's when cordelia then decides to look for real estate acquisitions and I like the fact that it's not wesley who thinks of this it's gone who thinks of it. That as to have you ever considered looking here for it? And it also is almost like a little bit of a foreshadowing or logical leading into later on in the fifth season, when he's given in essence the brain transplant, as it were, and becomes their top legal beagle at the firm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I made a note that this is why it bums me. Leading up to that, there's a couple episodes where there are references to Gunn as being the muscle and the idea that the team doesn't value him for his brains, which I never bought. When that starts happening because of things like this, like gun always contributed and I just I felt like they did that to to take the character to the point where he was, you know, really struggling with it so that he would make the choice he did.
Speaker 2:Actually I like that in the show is the fact that the characters almost don't take him seriously because they still view him as a street dog and not somebody who is actually very smart. Even Angel, and definitely Wesley and most definitely Cordelia, don't accept the fact that you can be as tough street fighter and also be rather smart as well. The two are not dichotomous. You to be smart, you don't have to be bookish, and he is both.
Speaker 1:And yeah, see, and I actually thought they did appreciate it, but the show wanted to, like, make it seem like they didn't. But I haven't watched it in a long time, so that could be.
Speaker 2:Well, now it flashes back to London in 1760, and now we get our second scene of the episode and, sadly, the last time we see the Master, and that is Angelus meeting with the Master for the very first time. And one just as a side note. One thing I like about this is this is played almost as in a young girl brings her boyfriend home to meet her dad for the first time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and just like David plays Zoe very well off of Julie, his bit with Mark Metcalf borders on hilarious in this scene, and Darla is introducing him to the master with a sense of pride. His name would already be legendary in the town where he's from had he left anyone alive there to tell. I love the dialogue in this episode. Yeah, and, and she does mention that on the way to see the master they cut a bloody swath across South Wales and northern England and once again with a sense of pride, she says he was magnificent. And that's when Darla points out that the master is the leader of their order, the order of Aurelius, which I like as a nice callback to Buffy when they discuss that there in that episode. That's right, yeah, and which, for fans of Buffy, they will remember that that was very prominent in the first season of Buffy and it ended with Spike taking the annoying one and throwing him into the sun with one of my favorite spike lines of a little less ritual and a lot more fun.
Speaker 2:Yes, that was a great line and a great twist, because you think the Anointed One is going to be important for the season and turns out nope, nope, he's dead in the second episode, he's gone, yeah, which was one of the first signs, that of buffy's, showing that no, don't try to guess us where we're going, we're going to be a step ahead of you.
Speaker 2:Well, getting back to angel, that's when the master then says we wait below and pay tribute to the old ones, which, as a side note, what I like about was even at point we don't quite know who the old ones are and that line just seems almost as a throwaway. But, as we see later, in A Hole in the World, the old ones are finally explained who they are, and it becomes a huge plot point for the rest of the series. Well, the master supposedly says about how they're the elite in the select among vampires. At that point, that's when Angela starts to piss off the master with almost every single line that he says. It makes it very clear I'm not here to impress you, I do not care about getting your approval, because he immediately looks down on all of them and makes a mention of you all live in the sewers, which is ironic considering as we see in the present day. Yeah, he does live above ground, but how does Angel get around LA?
Speaker 1:In the sewers, yeah.
Speaker 2:But anyways, darla then tries to make excuses for Angelus' rudeness, as the master is clearly offended by that, and she says, yeah, he just fed. The blood is still hot in his veins. And the conversation turns very turns very quickly from friendly to antagonistic. With with this pair of dialogue of the master, we stalk the surface to feed and draw ranks. We do not live among the human pestilence. Angelus, laughing, I'll be honest, you really couldn't not with that face, could you? Yeah, that's a good way to impress the guy. Yeah, yeah, you look ugly as sin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he doesn't pull any punches.
Speaker 2:Oh, as I said, it's very clear the moment Angela starts talking he has no desire to get on the master's good side. It's pure and utter arrogance. And the master obviously is pissed to the point where he picks him up and literally heaves him across the room. And Angela then just gets up and tells darla to come with him, since the sewer is no place for her. And each time he gets up the master just punches him back down, which doesn't slow angels down at all, nor does it make him any the more respectful, if anything. He becomes even ruder, as with each punch, and then the master finally regretfully realizes that darla is choosing angelus over him and he reluctantly lets them leave peacefully without having anyone attack them, with the final line of it won't last, I get a century tops I love that line.
Speaker 2:It's, it's just perfect oh yeah, and he's actually not too far off from how long it takes before Darla actually does return to him Because, if we think about it, she leaves the order. This is 1760. She leaves the order with Angelus in that year, but by the time Buffy arrives in Sunnydale, in Welcome to the Hellmouth in 1997, the time Buffy arrives in Sunnydale, and welcome to the Hellmouth in 1997, darla is once again back with the Master. Yep, that's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we get the feeling that, in between the Boxer Rebellion which, as a reminder, was in 1900, at some point after kicking him out, that's when she returned to the Master, probably once again, because we have this gap of time never being filled in for her we'll assume that, since she's heartbroken over losing angelus, that that's when she decides to go back to the master, most likely asks his forgiveness, and the master, caring for her because he's the one who sired her, took her back as yeah, this.
Speaker 1:This fills in retroactively. It adds a lot more weight to buffy season one, where angel kills darla, if to save buffy or to protect buffy and at the time we know darla is important.
Speaker 2:But, knowing all of this, when I go back and watch, it has so much more weight and because, oh, agree, because now you can see how tough of a decision it was for him to kill darla. That and he was, he did, and the only reason he did it was to protect buffy. Because, well, keep in mind, angel no doubt knew of Darla being in Sunnydale for who knows how long, because we see him becoming. Yes, he sees her in LA and then follows her out to Sunnydale, but one would imagine he probably knew Darla was in the area, because Darla doesn't strike me as a person who plays quietly in the background. She was probably on a nice tear across Southern California.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he knows the master is there. And this also fits with her in the early episodes of Buffy saying we'll bring Angel back into the fold, you know, saying I'll bring angel to you. Um, I I thought here too that this was a pretty major turn for her story, when she breaks away from the master to essentially rejects her sire and to go off and have a life with angelus. It was that it was a huge thing for her to do and I would imagine it feeds her later anger or you know it's at least some part of her later anger at, at and jealous for not, you know, not being able to be the vampire she wants him to be later yeah, because of the sacrifice she made, because the impression we get in the series is there is a close bond, or at least from the one who is sired to the one who sired them, because we see how drusilla feels towards angela's, angela's feels towards darla, spike feels towards drusilla.
Speaker 2:So are then all these cases, the one, the siring, sire, siree relationship there is a bit of a affection felt for it because even in conversations with dead people, when Holden mentions that Spike is the one who sired him, it's almost wow, I knew Spike. You get the feeling he really likes Spike because look what he did for me and all that. And there is that connection between the two of them. And maybe I'm filling this in and just in my head, but the act of the one who is sired killing the one who sired them is probably rare in the vampire universe, in the buffy vampire yeah, you would, yeah, you would think so yeah, because there is this mother, or sorry, parent child relationship.
Speaker 2:So, just like it's well, thankfully a parent killing a child doesn't happen super often statistically in the human, in the mortal universe, in a vampire one, once again, statistically is doesn't happen too often as well and is a shocking event, just like it would be in the mortal universe. And so that's why for Angel, when he did that to Darla, that is a shocking event, especially now we see this, as you said, in retrospect, when we see how close they were. And now just one last comment. Here is I mentioned at the beginning, this is the only appearance of the Master in the series and, if I recall, only other time we see him in Buffy after this is at the beginning of is at the very end of Lessons when they do that bit of showing all the big bads throughout each of the season. That was his only other appearance in Buffy after this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's right yeah, which is a shame because once again, mark metcalf was wonderful as the master and it's just a shame we didn't get more of him in flashbacks or in something. But now it does flash to the present. An angel is looking up the origin of the name darwin and he reads off the fact that anglo-saxon variation meaning dear one and didn't come into common usage until 100 years after she was born. Now, unlike the jamestown one where I said that, no, the episode was not even close to being accurate, this one they were actually pretty much close on, because looking up in Wikipedia it does say that Darla well, obviously it means darling, and angels reading in whatever book he had was pretty close, darling, dear one. Okay, I can see just whoever wanted to do the translation could have come up with either one. See, just whoever wanted to do the translation could have come up with either one. And ancestrycom says that it does mean dear or loved one and came about actually. Well, this is where at least his translation book he was reading is wrong, because in ancestry it said it came about in the early middle ages. Yeah, so not a hundred years after she was born, but actually a century or two before or about time before she was born, a couple centuries.
Speaker 2:But anyways, that's when Angel concludes that the master is the one who gave her that name, that she doesn't even remember her name. In your opinion, why would you think that Timonir would not have us know, or even have the characters like Angel or Darla know her real name? Because, as you mentioned, we're Spike, we know his real name, william, the Bloody Fans know Angelus' slash Angel's real name, his moral name, william. So we know. And then Drusilla was always Drusilla, so that one her character's name didn't change. But for Spike and Angel we knew their mortal names. But why do you think Tim Veneer pointedly did not give us Darla's real name?
Speaker 1:Yeah, to me. I don't know what his thinking was, but it added to that theme of identity that Darla, who Darla was as a human, is lost to her Spike, is as a vampire, is still informed by who he was as a human. You know his outer mannerisms and shell. He has changed, but there's so much inside that's similar and with Darla we know almost nothing and neither does she, so it really it gives. It makes it so heartbreaking later when she asked Lindsay, like what did you bring back? What am I?
Speaker 2:No, I would agree with you on that point, because with Angel and Spike, as you said, their past do inform their present, and for both of them they're not really ashamed of their past per se. Because with Angel, he's not really ashamed of being Liam, because Liam was a person of wealth, because he had a servant and he looked like he was living in a nice home and was able to go out carousing and partying. And Spike, well, he was close to his mother and he was in love with Cecily. I mean, he had a bit of life there. But with Darla, on the other hand, she was a prostitute, and just the impression I get was she hated her life. As she said, god never did anything for me. So, as I mentioned, she was welcoming becoming a vampire. It's actually a surprise. She didn't commit suicide before this point as a result of her forgetting her past and even her name. That's probably something she was happy to do and to put that all behind her.
Speaker 2:Going back to the episode, wesley, though, isn't having any luck finding Darla, and Angel's wondering why Wolferman Hart brought her back as human at all, and Wesley thinks that maybe that was the only way, or maybe they were doing it as a way to control her, and they might have brought her back to keep him distracted, knowing that he would be obsessed with finding her, which, well, if that was the case, yep, it was working as we discussed. He is obsessed. Well, now, at this point, it cuts to lindsey's back to lindsey's office, and he and Darla enter it. And that's when Holland comes in wanting to talk to Lindsay privately and Lindsay is concerned about her and the fact that she's becoming emotionally unstable. And when he mentions this to Holland, holland is clearly pleased and is saying that he needs to accelerate their plan and he thanks Lindsay and tells him not to let Darla leave the premises and he also recommends don't put any sharp objects near.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hide all the staplers and anything sharp.
Speaker 2:Yes, and as he walks away, that's when Lindsay has a look of concern, once again showing the fact that Darla is becoming more important to him, that she is not just a tool that they brought back, that she is becoming more important. Well, now it flashes back to London, now in 1880, and darla and angelus are looking over the body of a slayer they had just killed and the camera pulls away and we see a new member of their gang, druzilla, who is the one who fed upon the salem. And that's when she says in a great druusilla line when I bit into him I could hear the ocean, yeah, which, once again, I'm so glad they never got rid of Drusilla, because Juliet Landau brings a nice sweet loopiness to her. Where she gives these online readings where you're just having the reaction everyone else goes with, you are freaking insane. But you could sense in her head there is a logic to what she is saying. Yeah, it's big fun to her, but she does say she is happy she fed on the sailor but feels all alone.
Speaker 2:And they're also having a nice discussion here where she refers to darla as grandmother, which, yeah, even though darla never ages she, because she's a vampire she will always remain young and beautiful for the rest of time, because that's the major trait of being a vampire is you retain your, the looks you have at the time you are sired, at the time you are turned. But that still offends darla like it would well, I would imagine, most women. But the thing is, though, if you look through the vampire family tree, drusilla is not wrong, because darla sired angelus. Who sired? Yeah, she is two vampire generations removed from Drusilla, making her her grandmother, but then also, in a nice foreshadowing of an episode coming right up here in just a couple of episodes, her line of don't be cross, I could be your mummy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and she will be. She will be in the trial, she will become darla's mother, which then, with this family tree, is extremely twisted. She's both the grandmother and mother. Yeah, darla is the grandmother. And now, yeah, we all go down that path of how twisted that is. But then angela still decides to end this argument by suggesting to Drew that she should create a playmate with this dialogue.
Speaker 1:Well, if you're lonely Drew, why don't you make yourself a playmate? I could.
Speaker 2:I could, pick the wisest and bravest knight in all the land and make him mine forever with a kiss. Watch your back, drew, chloe. A kiss, what are you doing? Or you could just take the first drooling idiot that comes along. This is one of the two crossover scenes I mentioned that they had with Fool for Love, which, as I mentioned before, is this is the beginning of the scene that we saw in Fool for Love, because in Fool for Love we see how this continues, with Drusilla going into the alleyway after Spike and then siring him, biting into him and what I like was in the Full for Love. We don't get the Darla or the first drooling idiot who comes along showing that she looked down upon Spike even before he became a vampire. We just see the focus is on Drusilla and Spike in that scene, whereas here, once again, the focus is more on Darla's and her view of others yeah, and I really enjoyed that.
Speaker 1:And it's such an ingenious way to overlap those flashbacks so that if you watch them both in order, it doesn't feel repetitive, even though there are some moments that are repeated. We get these other insights.
Speaker 2:Yeah, here the overlapping moment is Spike stumbling into the trio, because that part is in full for love. But in that case the focus was on spike coming down the street, distraught over the party and not noticing darla angelus, and drew and bumping into them, whereas in here that's just a small portion of it. The emphasis was on the trio. Just one other side note here. One thing also this is the only episode of either series where spike is in a flashback but he's never in a present-day scene. This is the only episode of buffy or angel where we only see spike in flashbacks. Interesting, yeah, because in every other one, like like in Fool for Love or why we Fight, or in others like that, we do see him in flashbacks, but we also see him in the present. Yeah, but this one, no, not in the present at all, but anyways. So it goes back to the present day and Wesley is showing a lead that they may have. At first Angel thinks that it's slim and they might need to research it more, but then Cordelia then explains that she called the property manager and managed to get her to reveal that there is a blonde girl living in the property who perfectly matches Darla's description. And that's when Angel is about to rush off, when Wesley and Cordelia convince him otherwise, because Wesley points out that instead he and Gunn should do reconnaissance and report back to decide how to proceed. And he stresses as a team. And Cordelia also points out the even better point which is, by the way, it's one in the afternoon and the address is in Sun Valley. After they leave a nice bit of Angel then with a slight laugh saying Sun, and Cordelia then point out no, actually I was thinking more about Valley. After all, why go there when you don't have to?
Speaker 2:Well, now it cuts back to Lindsay's office and this is sort of the big scene between Lindsay and Darla, and Darla is looking out the window and I love the nice effect of showing her sad reflection very faintly in the window, almost like her soul, very faint, just shining back onto her. Lindsay then enters extremely concerned about her, and that's when Darla reveals that that's not her real name. As you and I discussed before. She was a vampire and she doesn't even remember who she was and she asked Lindsay what her other name was, because she doesn't remember, though she does say it doesn't matter because she's no longer that girl, and she even says I was Darla for so long that I wasn't. I wasn't anything, it just stopped. He killed me and I was done. Then you brought me back and that's when she, as you mentioned. She then asks what was it that Wolferman Hart brought back? And she says was it that girl that I can't remember, or did you bring back something else?
Speaker 2:The other thing which, once again, this is why I love this episode is the poetry of the lines here, because, just like with Angel, where he treats Angelus and Angel as two separate beings just living within the same body that's how she views it as well. Is it the other thing, or was it her? She does view them as removed from each other. Yeah, that's an interesting comparison and it's another way that two of them are similar. Still, essentially, spike just a nicer version of himself, as opposed to, especially with Angel and Angelus, where they are two distinct personalities.
Speaker 1:Angelus, yeah, yeah, Spike is very like he's evolved a lot, but he always seems to have a strong sense of who he is, other than when he's really insane in the basement.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, we'll say insane, gibbering Spike.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 2:It was wild. But other than that, yeah, because in seven seasons you know very well from doing the episodes for your show he's still just as snarky and just as ready to put people down as he was when he was evil Spike. He's just now being a nicer guy about it. And then, even before he got his soul back as a reminder, he cared about buffy, he cared about dawn. I mean, he was protective towards the well. Actually he was even nice in the early seasons towards joy to joy.
Speaker 1:It's great, great he was he. He connected with people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because he was bringing flowers to her when he heard about what happened to her. He was bringing flowers out of legitimate concern for her, and this was as soulless Spike. So when he became good guy Spike no, he was still essentially Spike, just a nicer, more heroic version of the character. And now he's ready to kill the entire gang.
Speaker 1:Right, right With the exception of Zander. Yeah, well, of course, who wouldn't? But yeah, but Darla and Angel, they have that sense of separation, of having those different entities that sense of separation, of having those different entities.
Speaker 2:And I love the entire scene, though, between darla and lindsey because what I love about this is how beautiful and quiet their deliveries are is both of them speak almost in whispers, because christian cain has that natural delivery. That's how his voice normally sounds, is somewhat whispery-ish, just normally, but Julie matches him in the same whispery tone to keep it very melancholy, very quiet between the two of them, as she is slowly feeling the pain creep into her soul that we see play out big time at the end of the episode with her scene with David. And, as I mentioned before, we can see that Lindsay is clearly falling for her, that she's not a project to him, like she wasn't dear boy, but someone he truly cares about. And the relationship has matured greatly just in this short period of time between the two episodes and it's become much more complex. And I cannot praise the two actors enough. They play so well. It is a compelling scene even though, plot wise, there's not much that happens, but their delivery, their acting, is so compelling that it's worth watching.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I thought that. So it's interesting. This is right about the middle of the episode and you know, in my show I always look at what happens at the midpoint, Right. I think we've got two pretty big reversals for Darla. Reversals for Darla and one is the kind of quiet in this with Lindsay when she talks about feeling her body decaying and she calls the soul a cancer.
Speaker 1:So this is emotional, this is how she sees it. And then I know I'm jumping ahead a little but we're going to go into that flashback in Romania. And she has a reversal there too, because she can't get Angel's curse reversed, partly because Spike it's the family of the leader and she has no leverage. But in both storylines she has this reversal which I think helps keep this episode feeling like it has structure, even though it skips around. But you know past and present and Angel's story of finding Darla and Lindsay's story. There's a lot going on but it helps anchor it that you've got those two things for her right here in the middle.
Speaker 2:And she even comments about the pain she's feeling and also mentioning the fact that life's too short. Believe me, I know 400 years and it's still too short. And that's when Lindsay leans in and they kiss tenderly, though she then points out that even as they're kissing, angel is still on Lindsay's mind, as she says it's not me that you want to screw, yeah, yeah, says it's not me that you want to screw, yeah, it's yeah. And that's when she also reveals that she knows that wolfram and heart is using her to get the angel and they begin to make love. When, out of habit, she leans in and bites lindsey, causing him to jump back in shock. And, as you mentioned, that's when she says she can feel her body dying and she feels her soul. As you said, it's like a cancer and it is destroying.
Speaker 2:Well, now we cut to the scene that you're mentioning, which is Romania, and Angelus, we see, is wandering through the woods, just based on what we've seen in previous episodes of this, as well as Buffy, that this is immediately after the curse was given to him by the gypsy clan, and Darla is back trying to convince the father to undo it and she's trying to negotiate with him, saying that your family will live through the night. And she also says she feels that the punishment was unjust because the daughter's pain was temporary, while Angelus's torment will be eternal, which is not a convincing argument concerning. Well, that was the entire point of the curse to make this eternal. So it's one of those I can't believe. You punished my boyfriend. We meant to punish him.
Speaker 2:Drew then asks where Angelus is and Darla sends her away to feed on the camp, and I love the way she's doing it. It's a mother towards a child, because she says, almost like the way a parent would send a child off to play, when she's trying to get stuff done, mommy's trying to get work done, go, go play. Or, in this case, mommy's trying to get her boyfriend soul, his boyfriend's soul removed. So go off and feed on some people, have fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly oh, and it's another parallel to Buffy was always trying to get the curse reversed as well. Obviously, for different reasons, she wanted to get him cursed again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, once again a flip side of the same thing. Luffy wanted the curse put back on and with that Darla wants it removed. Yeah Well, darla then negotiates further, realizing the first argument's not going to work, by saying that, okay, if you lift the curse, then I will allow your wife and family to survive the evening. And I almost get the feeling she would have been true to her word that if the gypsy father had gone to the old woman and said, okay, remove the curse, she would have killed everyone else in the camp. Killed everyone else in the camp. Yes, everyone else, including the old woman, would have died, but the father and the children probably would have lived, because I the impression I always get with darla is she's not a liar in that case, because yeah, I agree, I have the same, the same view yeah, but it becomes a moot point because, as she's negotiating, that's when spike sticks his head out and it's very clear that there goes the negotiating position, because the wife and daughters are all dead thanks to Spike.
Speaker 2:And that's when Darla realizes OK, I've got nothing else I can go with. So she has the only thing she can think of to do Snap, killing the father. And that's what she tells Drew and Spike Kill everyone, just wipe them all out. What I like about this was especially if you're a Buffy fan wow. This fills in gaps with it, because we've seen elements of this same scene in other episodes, such as like in 5x5, where Darla first realizes that Angel has a soul, and then also we see the murder of the Romani girl in an earlier episode, and then also we see in Becoming, part 1, the father confronting Angelus and saying by the way, you're going to hurt and I want you to, which then explains why in this episode, why Darla's comment about he's going to hurt and I want you to, which then explains why in this episode, why darla's comment about he's going to be suffering forever fell on deaf ears, because we already saw that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know that and I want you to yeah, exactly well, now it cuts back to the present day and ones and wesley is showing a video of darla's apartment and it is completely trashed and they make it very clear that that's the way they found it, that they didn't cause it. And Angel observes that all the windows were smashed and he deduces that she did because she's feeling the weight of her soul. And when Cordelia points out the fact that Angel never did that and he says that's because I'm a vampire, I didn't have to literally look at myself in the mirror, so I don't have that issue. And leslie and angel debating whether or not to go help her when the phone rings, thus ending the debate, because the call is from darla and she is very upset because of the feeling of her soul within her. And it is interesting in how she refers to him. Even now she still refers to him as my boy in a maternal but upset tone. So even now she's still calling him my boy.
Speaker 2:But she does say help me, as Lindsay is entering the room and sees her on the phone and a guard also comes in and lindsey tries to wave him off, saying I can handle this, you know, go. And he wants to help darla, but darla says that angel is the only one who can help her. She also comments about hearing her heartbeat as she is talking, and, while still on the phone with Angel, she punches Lindsay and attacks the guard. Now it cuts to a little bit later and Holland is watching the security footage with Lindsay of Darla attacking the guard, and the guard is knocked out and Lindsay hustles Darla out of the office. And that's when Holland tells Lindsay that he's off the project because he's too emotionally involved. And he then points out, though, that Darla was picked up two blocks away, so she didn't get very far from the place. And he then makes a mention that the project is terminated, which Lindsay knows what Wolfram and Hart does with people who are terminated, as we saw in the previous episode when they terminate employees.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so he's got no question about what's going to happen to Darla.
Speaker 2:Exactly. They don't need her, she's useless to them, she'll be dead. But now it cuts over to the Hyperion and Angel is gearing up to rescue Darla. And it does say that he's going alone and when Wesley warns him that he could be walking into a trap, angel's response is that he understands what she's going through because he did the same thing. And we see this by cutting now to our third time, our next timeline, which is China, during the Boxer Rebellion in 1900.
Speaker 2:And as a side note, julie Benz in interview says that the flashbacks scenes for her were the high points of playing Darla and her favorite scenes was in during the boxer rebellion. And, as we'll see, there might be a good reason why, because we're her big scene with angel here. Just angelus in just a little bit, which is angelus, sneaks up upon darla and she immediately pulls a dagger on him, upset at him, and she makes it very clear she's disgusted by him because he's got a soul now and also she can smell on him that he's been feeding on vermin and he practically begs her to kill him, which, as we'll see here in a later scene. We see a similar play out between Darla and Angel in the present day where she is also begging him to end her pain, but in a different way.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Just like Angel, darla refuses and he then explains that what he really wants is a second chance, an opportunity to go back to the way things were before, and Darla makes it very clear she wants to believe him. As I've mentioned before, just like buffy was willing to forgive angel for his sins, as angelus, even in the present day, darla is making a very clear. She's willing to forgive him and she, because deep down, she wants her boyfriend back. She really really wants Angelus back. And they do kiss passionately.
Speaker 1:I was fascinated the first time around just to find out this idea that Angel with the soul tried to go, you know, tried to go back to Darla, still wanted his, his old life back, you know where. When you just watch Buffy you would think, okay, he got his soul. And you know he struggled because Whistler finds him in that alley feeding on rats. But there's no hint that he tried to embrace, you know, still being a vampire, even with the soul. So I love that. It added a lot of layers to the angel.
Speaker 2:What is interesting is why he was going back to Darla, and it's not even so much. Oh well, I want to go back to feeding on people Because, as we find out in the next flashback scene, he doesn't actually feed upon well. I want to go back to feeding on people because, as we find out in the next flashback scene, he doesn't actually feed upon well any good people. That feeds only upon the evil ones. So it's not so much he misses doing that, he misses the comfort of the past because and this is actually true with most people that, oh, this relationship ended and I know it might have been bad and twisted or whatever, but I still miss it because it was something I knew, gared of the unknown. And now he's in the unknown, he is on his own because, if you think about it, he had been with darla from the moment he was turned into a vampire, and so this is what about a hundred some years, yeah, with her. He knows what to expect with her and that's why he's going back to her, because one he is still indebted to her. As I mentioned before, the sire, siree relationship, a mother child relationship. I still miss you. Even though it was a toxic relationship. I still need you, and so I get the feeling that's what he was willing to go back to is not even so much being a vampire per se, but being with darla, being in a relationship that he felt comforted in. But now it cuts back to lindsey, who's walking through a garage and he's calling someone on the phone. We don't know who it is. Angel then sneaks up behind and ties a cord around his neck, threatening to kill him unless he reveals where Darla is. And that's when Lindsay reveals who he was calling, which was he was calling Angel on the phone because we hear Cordelia's voice of we help the helpless on the other end, and he makes a very clear that he wants Angel's help to save Darla, because he knows very well that Wolfram and Hart is out to kill her. And he reveals that the location is probably an abandoned bank with an underground vault on Figueroa and 9th. Now, as a side note, I looked on Google Maps just to see how accurate this might have been. And, unlike other intersections where I've mentioned in the past, where, nope, those two things never intersected or anything, in this case Figueroa Street does intersect with 9th Avenue in LA. So there is a Figueroa and 9th intersection and I looked, at least in the present day Now I didn't have the ability to look back 20 years to see what was there, but at least located there. Now there's the Capitol Grill, original Pantry Cafe and Apex, the one apartment complex, swift Title Loans and First Republic Bank. So any one of those, like the First Republic Bank, could have had an underground vault. So that's actually the location he gave, could have been a feasible location even at that time when the show aired. Now Angel makes it clear that he's going to trust Lindsay, is telling him the truth in terms of location, but he does threaten to return if Lindsay is telling him the truth in terms of location, but he does threaten to return if Lindsay is lying, as he says, and I just might kill you, even if you are telling the truth, as he walks off.
Speaker 2:And now it gets back to the Boxer Rebellion and Angelus is wandering through the streets looking for Darla and he comes across a family of father, mother, daughter and a crying baby who are cowering in the alleyway. Now, as a casting note, the person playing the framed mother is the girlfriend of the gaffer, dan Kearns, who worked on the episode. So hey, oh man, who do you know? And Angelus looks at them very unsure what to do. I mean because it's his vampire tendency says feed upon them. But now they has a soul. He doesn't want to. He has that conscience now. So he chooses to back away. And that's when he hears Darla calling out for him and she kisses him excitedly and she's just about to go into the alleyway, when he quietly steers her away from the alley, thereby protecting the family yeah, that was a big moment.
Speaker 1:Like you don't know how important it's going to be, but it makes a huge difference oh yeah, because that comes into play big time in the next scene yeah when darla reveals that as well, and at that moment that's when they encounter spike and drew and drew proudly tells of spike killing a slayer.
Speaker 2:And, as a side note, this is the other crossover scene from fool for love, because we saw the scene of him killing the slayer in fool for love, along with this part of the scene that we see here of them encountering all four of them getting together, and also what we see as one bit where I mentioned at the beginning that well, you know, you didn't have to have seen all of you, didn't have to have seen full for love to understand darla one element does actually help explain, which is we do see in Full of Love why Spike has a scar here on his face and why it's freshly bleeding Because, well, chin Rung, the Chinese slayer, had cut him in their fight together, whereas in this one I mean, it's not a major plot point, but it does help fill that gap in just a little bit, and Angel then coldly congratulates Spike on it. It's not a major plot point, but it does help fill that gap in just a little bit and angel then totally congratulates spike on it. And, as I mentioned beginning, it's nice change in tone where it's the exact same scene literally, and so it's not like in the case of the earlier crossover, where there's part of the scene that was not even in buffy but was in here. In this case this entire scene is shot for shot. The exact same scene that was not even in Buffy but was in here. In this case, this entire scene is shot for shot. The exact same scene that was in both episodes, but in Buffy because we didn't see the initial dialogue that they had.
Speaker 2:In the previous scene between he and Darla, we're perceiving Angelus' reaction in Full of Love, as one of jealousy, but now we see that normally in the past, pre-curse, angelus would have taken some sense of joy and great, you know, a slayer is killed or whatever, but in this case there is no joy in it because she's human and so he doesn't take the same pleasure he had before.
Speaker 2:So that's why he's cold. And what I like was in full for love, because the emphasis is on spike in all the flashbacks. Even in this scene we're paying more attention to spike in his dialogue of hey, I'll save, I'll save the next slayer for you, you know, and all that in that scene we don't notice darla as much because we're looking more at angelus and spike and and a little bit drew, but in this one, because it is, the episode is mostly focused on darla. We do notice her and it is hard to miss the fact that she notices that angelus is trying to act like he's happy but he's not. So you could see the look in her eyes of okay, not everything is what Angelus is claiming. Nail, he's not truly back yet, because you just see that subtly in her eyes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the actress is amazing. And you're right, you don't notice it the first time around because you don't know that that's an issue, but once you know to look at Darla you can see it. She is very concerned. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's when Angelus then insists upon leaving because he says this rebellion is starting to bore me. And, as I said, that's when darla is noticing that something is wrong. Well, now it cuts back to the underground vault, the van pulls in and darla is roughly thrown out onto the floor and men get out and are about to shoot her. Now here's my one question. These are men with guns, and we've seen in previous episodes that they have no problem shooting people in wolfram and heart, which is where darla was. They could have dragged darla back into wolfram, in heart, and pump the gun into her, bang, kill her now. Granted, we find out later why they did that, but right I had the same thing.
Speaker 1:I was like, well, why not kill her in the van? Why not anywhere?
Speaker 2:what anywhere I mean they drink. It's not like, oh whoa, we have to hide the body or whatever. Yeah, for that heart, they could have had some shaman go and dematerialize the body.
Speaker 1:And there goes your evidence right, and even if you wanted to hide the body, let's say there was nothing magical. You kill her in the van and drive the body somewhere, not throw her out of the van, kill her, put her back in. Yeah, like you said, I think you know, we find out later.
Speaker 2:They probably had instructions yeah, because it let angela get her in front and angel to come rescue her, but but also which, though, does tie back to a line that Lindsay said, which is this is where they go to do these things. Now, yes, as you just mentioned, as you and I were discussing, yes for Darla, there was a reason why they dragged this out, as opposed to bang, bang, you're dead and they'll throw you out the nearest window or nearest dumpster. They did this with others as well. Once again, why, why? Or nearest dumpster. They did this with others as well. Once again, like, why, why? Once again? They're an even powerful law firm with connections to other realms, and just and, as you said, even forgetting that aside, they could throw her into the nearest dumpster and nobody would trace it back to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're right. Yeah, why even have a? Why have that place? But anyone will never know? Yeah, you're right. Yeah, why even have a? Why have that place? Everyone will never know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, true. So now it cuts back to China and Angela does return home to find Darla waiting for him and she demands to know where he was and what he is feeding on. And, as they have this dialogue, where have you been?
Speaker 1:Carla answer me.
Speaker 2:Just out why Feeding yeah On vermin. No, don't lie to me.
Speaker 1:I have killed men. You've seen it Rapists and murderers, thieves and scoundrels. Did you think I wouldn't notice?
Speaker 2:Only evildoers. That's all you want now you swore to me.
Speaker 1:You said, if I took, you back.
Speaker 2:You'd prove yourself, I will Good. Now's your chance.
Speaker 1:I went back before dawn they were still cowering there Praying to their god for salvation. They didn't know that their only savior was at the waterfront dining on rats. I won't be made a fool, angelus, not by you, not by anyone. While Spike Spike was out killing a Slayer, you were saving missionaries From me. Sorry, no, no more words.
Speaker 2:At at now.
Speaker 2:Just a few comments on the scene.
Speaker 2:The reason why I played it at length is listeners of the show will know that I had commented many times at the beginning of the series plays a reformed alcoholic metaphor for Angel the fact that this is a guy who's trying to overcome his addiction and is dealing with his demons in a 12-step type of way.
Speaker 2:This plays out as a similar scene because Darla is reacting the way a partner, a wife, a husband would once they find that their partner, the person they loved, has fallen off the wagon, has not lived up to the promise. You said you would stop doing this and yet you are still. You swore to me you would stop drinking. You swore to me you would never cheat on me again or whatever, and do I find you haven't changed at all from what you had promised. So result she is striking out of anger, out of hurt, out of feelings of betrayal, and especially with the line of I will not be made a fool of because which is how a lot of times, especially in a adultery, a type situation how the partner feels is I was made to look like a fool, while you're off cheating on me.
Speaker 1:you're making me look like a fool, like an idiot, as if I didn't know this, and so that's what gives the scene that extra layer of that I like to her when she says well, Spike was off killing a slayer, which made me think of that line earlier where she said, oh, you pick the first drooling idiot who comes along. I never caught that before, but it's interesting because it's like Spike, you know, she probably still doesn't think a whole lot of him, and it's like Spike was doing this and you're off protecting, you know, saving missionaries.
Speaker 2:From me, from me. The from me line just happened. But yes, you're correct, because, as we've seen other episodes later on in other flashbacks, neitherela's nor darla ever truly respected spike, or that part comes through. Is they never truly respected, spike? And so in this case she does have the tone of this moron over here has managed to wipe out a slayer in a relatively short period of time of being a vampire, and you, the person I took back to the master and bragged about about how vicious you were and all the, all the trouble we caused, you're off now saving missionaries, which I love.
Speaker 2:Her line of that, one of, once again a disgusted attitude of that. And then she then comments from me, once again, a feeling of betrayal. Yeah, you're not just protecting them, you are, in essence, making the decision that I am the foot, I am the one who is the danger here, that I am your enemy, that you have to protect people for me. You and I used to be the ones who attacked people, but now you're saving people for me. You are now, in essence, going on the opposite side of me and not teaming up with me, but opposing me, and that's what she is beginning to realize. They can never be be together. They will never be together. The fact that if he's protecting people from her, then it's just a matter of time before he turns on her completely. And, once again, a mother-child relationship, because if a parent feels a child outright turn on them like that, there is a deep, deep hurt there of you're the one I loved and now you are against me, and that's something that is so tough for her to accept and that's why she is so hurt by it. And that gives him that last final act, which is producing the baby. For him to feed upon something pure evil, because she knew she had produced the father or mother, maybe, maybe not, but to feed upon an innocent baby. If he would do that, then that meant okay, then there is hope for Angelus to return in her mind.
Speaker 2:Well, it cuts back to the present day. And just as they're about to shoot darlin, that's when angel wars up in typical dunes x makina fashion, because I always love it. Scenes like this and it just happens in action movies all the time where, yep, just right before the death is about to occur, that's when the appears. It's a good thing you didn't get stuck in hell. Yeah, exactly, or else the guys would have had to stand there and go. Okay, do you see, angel? Yet I'm trying to act like we're about to kill her, very threatening, but yeah, they would have had to do the typical bad guy bit of okay, now I'm about to kill you. Soon you will be dead. Ha ha, ha, ha ha. I'll say, darla, go with. You've got a gun Hold on me, why don't you just shoot me already? But anyways, he does war up and he jumps out saving her and he well, because these aren't the three toughest guys in the world, he knocks them all out One, two, three, boom, boom, boom, all out, unconscious, and he goes over to Darla to make sure she's okay and it cuts back to Wolfram and Hart and Lindsay returns to the office and he sees out in the hallway the guard, no longer in guard uniform but in a regular suit, shaking Holland's hand, suit shaking holland's hand.
Speaker 2:And that's when holland talks to lindsey. Holland admits that this was all a stunt pulled for lindsey's benefit, that all of this was a put on the reason why he wanted lindsey and darla and angel to all believe that darla was truly in danger. As he explained, you had to believe it so that Darla would believe it, so that Angel would believe it. It worked down that path. Lindsay then explains that he's confused as to what Holland's ultimate motivation is for what he plans to do with Darla, because he makes it very clear that Angel will never take sexual advantage of Darla and get, as he he describes, that moment of happiness that will bring Angelus back. So that was Wolfram and Hart's endgame. It's not going to work, and Holland says that he never expected those two to get physical, though turns out he's wrong.
Speaker 1:Maybe yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it shows what in this episode?
Speaker 2:But it does show that Holland maybe doesn't know Angel as well as he thinks he does, but anyways. But he says what he does expect Angel to do is what he must do to save her soul, thus making it very clear he's got a much more complex plan going on here than even Lindsay thinks. Well, now it cuts back to the Hyperion odd here than even Lindsay thinks. Well, now it cuts back to the Hyperion. And Darla is now laying on the couch with the team looking over her concern and Darla is looking visibly weaker and she looks over at Angel and smiles and addresses him as Angelus, thus causing Cordelia to point out nope, he says Angel now, not Angel, just Angel. They do agree to let Angel talk to Darla alone and she is grateful to be with someone who understands what she's going through and at that moment realizes that he never had that when he first became in soul, that he never had anyone he could talk to about what he was going through. And she asks him to make the pain stop by turning her. Thus, as a nice contrast with the scene we saw in at the Boxer Rebellion, where Angelus is asking Darla in essence to end his pain, but in his case it's not to turn him, because, well, he's already a vampire, but it's to outright kill him, to dust him.
Speaker 2:But Darla, though, is begging Angel to turn her, and he refuses and says that being alive is a gift with this line it's a gift To feel that heartbeat, to know, really, and for once, that you're alive, as he goes on says you're human again.
Speaker 2:Darla, you know what that means, and darla's response is of course I do. It means pain and suffering and disease and death. Look, I released you from this world once, I gave you eternal life. Now it's time to return the favor, and what like is, first of all, before we get to angels response to the return, the favor is the fact that, in her mind this is once again, the difference between the two of them is she still views being a vampire and having the eternal life, even if it means feeding upon people, as a favor, as a gift. She doesn't have that repentance. She feels the pain, but she still doesn't regret what she caused. She just feels their pain. But Angel, on the other hand, has, by saying the fact that she cursed him, she damned him, that no, what she gave him was not a gift at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a real conflict that's rooted in who they are right now. You know, it's not a conflict because they're not communicating well or because outside things are getting in the way. Like they see this completely differently and it goes to the heart of their values and what they think about life and humanity. There's so much going on there, just in those few lines, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:And Angel refuses and says he can't. Now, before I get back to the china scene, once again, I just want to praise the performances of david and julie in the scene, as I mentioned in the general discussion we did of the episode. There is so much history built into their performances that you can sense this connection that he never had with any other character in this in either series, and there is an intensity that they bring to it. And listeners of this show will know that one of my biggest commands for a tv series or movie is show don't tell, don't spell things out for me. Assume I am an intelligent viewer, that I can pick it up. The nuances based on line rings, based on body language, based on looks in their eyes. Make use of the fact that this is a visual medium and take advantage of it. And this scene does that, because you can feel that history between the two of them and the fact that angel wants to help her. He wants to relieve her pain, but he knows that turning her into a vampire is not the solution, that this is not the way he can help her. So when he says he can't, he's not doing that out of meanness or cruelty, it's because he knows that's the wrong solution. I want to help you, but I know this is not it. No matter how much you beg me, I won't because I know it's wrong. Ultimate and it is that intensity that made this scene work so so well between the two of them and also as a nice cutaway. Great editing here is when Angel says I can't.
Speaker 2:It immediately cuts over to China, as we see the end of the earlier scene, where Angelus also says he can't, but now for a different reason, because he can't feed upon the baby, because he's got a soul and he knows it's wrong. But darla then corrects him and says no, not I can't, you mean you won't. So basically making it clear no, you could if you wanted to. If you were truly angelus, you would feed upon the baby and not take a moment of it. And she is very clear that she is disgusted by his goodness at that moment. That's when he grabs the baby and dives through a window, fleeing from her. And, as fans of the both shows know, this is the last time that they will see each other for approximately almost 100 years. The last time they'll encounter each other Until the episode, angel, when they come across each other again there.
Speaker 2:And one thing throughout this episode, you and I have been discussing the parallels that it had with Fall for Love. Throughout this episode, you and I have been discussing the parallels that it had with Full of Love In a way. I'm not sure if this was intentional or not, but this also had a shot parallel with a scene in the episode no Place Like Home, the one that introduced Glory, because in that episode Buffy jumps through a high window with a dying monk in her arms to protect him. Yeah, and in this one it's almost the exact same shot, except he's carrying a missionary's baby while fleeing from the bad person there, darla.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yeah, they like to jump out windows. Yeah, it's always more window.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:They like to jump out windows. Yeah, it's always more window.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly, he's so dramatic.
Speaker 2:But now we get to our final scene, which is Becca the Hyperion, and just like Angel ran away from Darla, darla runs away from Angel, except she doesn't jump through a window. She actually does run out a door, but she does run into the sunlight and we see her standing in the middle of the sunlight, where Angel, of course, can't reach her, and he just has to stand there looking at her helplessly. And she says to him not to look for her ever again. And as she runs off, angel is standing there just looking after her, looking towards her direction, unsure of what to do, and that's where the episode ends. Now the next part is my favorite kills and lines, where I discussed what was the, the kills that happened in this episode and what was my favorite one, as well as my favorite line, the.
Speaker 1:Order of Taraka. I mean, isn't that overkill? No, I think it's just enough kill.
Speaker 2:Now this one in terms of the deaths that occurred here. Well, we have the Master, of course, siren Darla, and then we have Druzilla feeding upon the Sailor and Darla snapping the neck of the gypsy father. Now, as a note to listeners, what I am not counting is, first of all, the family killed by Spike, because I don't actually know how many killed, because I don't know how many daughters, for example, the father had, and so I can't go for a number on that one, and then also for other members of the camp. I don't know how many people were in the actual camp and how many Spike killed, how many Drusilla killed, how many Darla killed, so on. So it's just members of the camp. And then, finally, I don't count the family at the waterfront, even though, yes, it's very clear that Darla killed the entire family with the exception of the baby. But technically, what if the daughter had ran off? I don't know that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean and with this one I don't even if it's an off screen death, I will only count that if I know for certain, like the sailor yeah, they made it very clear, the sailor was killed by drew I mean, so that one, even though we didn't see it, we know who did it, and so that one I'm counting. But, as I said, the others, as I said, the members of the camp, the gypsy father's family and also the family in the alleyway, those I won't count for the kill total. Which, though?
Speaker 1:About Spike killing the Slayer. That's a good one. We don't see it, but we know it happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we know it happens. Actually, let me update that because, yeah, you're right, that one does. Yeah, that one, because especially if you watch Fool for Love, you know for sure they killed her. And in this one, yeah, because you have Drew making the reference. He just killed the Slayer. And Darlan makes a reference. Yeah, actually, I would count that. Yeah, that does count. So let me update my total there. So, as a result, that takes us up to 47 and a half deaths for Angel, one and a half for Wesley, four for Gunn, 72 for everyone else, so a total of 125 deaths so far in this series.
Speaker 2:And my favorite one would have to go with the Siren of Darla because, as you pointed out when we were mentioning it, it is the inciting incident for the entire episode. Without it, nothing else would have happened. So it is a very important event. Nothing else would have happened. So it is a very important event, and not just for the episode but for, in essence, the entire Buffy mythology, because without the Master, siren Darla, she wouldn't have sired Angelus, who wouldn't have sired Drusilla, who wouldn't have sired Spike, and then likewise, you know, going on and so forth, and then everything we've seen in Buffy wouldn't have occurred the way it did. If, once again, if the master had just stayed in England that weekend and not come over to Jamestown, then you know, all of history would have been different from that point on, and so that is why I'm counting that as my quote favorite death.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm going to cheat and say Spike killing the Slayer, even though we saw that in Fool for Love.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, well, a very key one, and I'm curious why.
Speaker 1:I so enjoyed enjoyed is the wrong word because I don't like to see him kill a slayer but just the way he fought and sparred with her and even kind of quipped with her, even though they didn't speak the same language. It was really interesting because you saw so much of who Spike was and still is in that.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, oh no, that was a wonderful, wonderful scene which isn't in this episode.
Speaker 2:I was going to wonderful scene which isn't in this episode. As I mentioned this one, and as listeners know, I'm a huge fan of Spike Because, as I said, james Marsters was the MVP of the show. He made every line. He was given work Just by his line.
Speaker 2:In my opinion, james Marsters has never been given as good a role since I've seen him in other stuff. Nothing as good as he was given. Unless something happens, it is his career high point and that's a shame because he was so good. I, in a way, I was hoping I could find something else since then, similar like allison that was in how I met your Mother. And then and David of course has had well, as people know, has had two even more successful scenes since then and Julie had Dexter in a completely different role than she had on here, where she played the main characters, very much of a victim wife and a huge difference from this show. And then, as I said, and then also alexis, even on how I met your mother, played a vastly different character than he played on here, complete with his own natural voice, not the british accent.
Speaker 2:Oh, right, yeah, yeah because he, for fans of how I met your mother, he was sandy rivers, an extremely obnoxious um anchor, and he was hilarious on that show, by the way. And but anyways, getting back to james, yeah, wonderful and full of love. And the scene which sharon was very, very good. That one, if I was reviewing that one, I would definitely go with. That was the. I have to think if that was the best scene of the episode yeah, there were a lot of good ones. That one, just as a side note, I'd have to stick with. The New York Slayer bit was the best one. If not, that was just for the editing of it. Yeah, because that one. I could watch that scene again and again, just for the cutaway back and forth between present day and New York. How it rapidly cut back and forth was just so good.
Speaker 2:But anyways, now for the favorite line.
Speaker 2:For that one I would have to go with the line that I was playing near the end of the it's a Gift line, because this ties in with the earlier line that Darla had when talking to Lindsay about the fact that even with 400 years, life is too short, and as both lines are saying a similar thing, which is it doesn't matter how long your life is, whether it's 40 years or 400 years, that you need to appreciate life, because life is short, that you don't know how much longer you have.
Speaker 2:And even though, as she points out in response to Angel's line about the, it's a gift where she says it's pain and agony it is still a gift. As Angel's point out, it is still a gift because, if you think about what is he going through all of this for the shanshu prophecy, which is what does that give him life? It makes him mortal again. So he, of all people, truly knows how precious life is, that he's willing to do all of this just for the promise of getting life, because he realizes how precious it is once it's taken away from you. So now that's it for this week's episode. I wish to thank Lisa and Lily from the Buffing the Art of the Story podcast again for joining me for this week's episode of Wolfram and Cast.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for having me on. It was so much fun.
Speaker 2:Oh, I agree, and, lisa, could you remind listeners where they can find you if they wish to reach out to you?
Speaker 1:Yes, you can go to my website, lisalilycom, that's L-I-S-A-L-I-L-L-Ycom, and you'll find the Buffy and the Art of Story podcast there as well, or on Apple podcast.
Speaker 2:In the next episode I will discuss the following episode. Angel walks a fine line between redemption, Air Force is ever good and you know nothing about it, the instinct to kill.
Speaker 1:We may have reawakened his bloodlust. Angel is overcome by his hunger. Oh, no, angel.
Speaker 2:I will continue my retrospective with an episode where Angel again goes undercover in order to help steal a shroud which has strange effects on those who come near it. So join me as I discuss if Angel is more convincing as J Don from Vegas or as Herb Saunders from Baltimore.
Speaker 1:Who's the mook? Herb Saunders, Baltimore. It's Herb Saunders.
Speaker 2:So join me, stephen, for the next episode of Wolfram and Cast. If you wish to reach out to me with any questions or comments, you can reach me on Facebook, instagram or Twitter at WolframCast, or email me at wolframcast at gmailcom. Feel free to write to me and I might read your comments or emails on the air. Please leave me a rating and review and be sure to press subscribe on iTunes, spotify, wherever you get your podcast entertainment. But for now, wait, no.
Speaker 1:Don't look for me again.